#182 – Mastercast: Embedding a coaching culture in sales teams w/ Sherry Nematalla

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Full episode transcript: 

​Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.

 

Phil: it's, I'm, you know, delighted that we have one of our master students, uh, join us today. Um, Sherry, so welcome to the, um, sales Transformation Podcast, Sherry, uh, and

the Mastercast, uh, Mastercast series in particular.

Sherry: Thank you. No, thanks Phil. I'm looking forward to this, uh, session. It'll be great.

Phil: It will be great. I know. Um, Sherry, before we get started on your project, is there any, is there any chance you can just give us a quick overview of who Sherry is and what's your background and um, and then we'll take it from there?

Sherry: Yeah, of course. So, um, I'm Sherry Nematalla. I've been at Vodafone for quite a while, so I've been at Vodafone nine, um, coming to 10 years.

Wow. Um, but before that, so I am a business and management student. That's where I started. I started in Reading University. I always knew I wanted to do something where I am customer facing. People facing, um, whether that'll be a customer, a partner, mainly inspired by my brother, who's, yeah, he's in sales and he's, he's doing amazing stuff.

So I've always kind of, as a little girl, I was like, yeah, he's pretty cool. Um, and then, yeah, so I, I did business and management. I managed to do, um, uh, well, it's a sandwich degree, so I got to do some experience in Microsoft in sales, but it's still not the reality of sales when you're doing it as an intern.

Um, after that I continued to, um, kind of continue my degree and then I decided on being on the Vodafone graduate scheme. Right. Whilst, like, whilst doing all of that, a part of me is obviously like culture's really important to me and, um, I used to practice leadership and supporting sales in different ways.

Part of the work I do with church, so that was kind of very heavily voluntary, but when I went into like Microsoft and Vodafone, that's when it became a bit more like. Practical and professional and um, and all of this great stuff. Yeah. I worked with Vodafone. I didn't take the angle of, okay, let me start the first year and just keep doing sales.

I wanted to be as well rounded as possible. I knew I wanted to do sales, but I wanted to understand what enables salespeople to get to deliver at the end. So I did quite, Vodafone gave me that flexibility. Mm-hmm. So I did, um, part of my graduate scheme and then even when I off boarded, I did. Um, I did a commercial role, I did a product role, I did a group role.

Um, and then when I did like, explored all of that, I went back to what I knew I loved, and that's when I went into client sales management. And then now where I am, um, as a global account manager. So initially it was super diverse. Now I'm very much very client based, staying with the strategic customers, which I, I absolutely love.

Yes. And I love building strategies and I love a before and after story. Like if something wasn't great before, how, how have I been able to influence it to make it better? So yeah, that's, um, a bit of a snapshot of my journey.

Phil: That's fantastic. Yep. I mean, but you, presumably, you didn't start off in global account management to, you know, whilst you joined the commercial team.

So what sort of roles did you have before you got into being a global account manager?

Sherry: Yeah, so when I, my first role ever at Vodafone, I did um, what we would call client exec, which is a support role. And it was very secret accounts, which was pretty cool. But I didn't get the exposure I wanted because obviously it's super secret.

I was still at the beginning of my career after that I did, um, commercial and I realized the reason I did commercial was 'cause I saw how much the salespeople I was around. Relied heavily on commercial for building deals, complex deals for getting approvals. So I felt like commercial had a lot of control, so I wanted to understand it and I also wanted to get out of my comfort zone.

I knew I, like, I loved the partnership strategic, but I also wanted to Okay, understand the numbers go deep into, and that's when I did, um, commercial and I was supporting salespeople in their complex deals. After that, I was like, I did something very different. I did product management. So, okay. I did product management twice.

So I did product management where it was very, um, UK product specialists, so in the UK world bubble, and I was still enabling salespeople and understanding what they need and how my product should develop for it to meet customer requirements. Um, after that, I did something I really loved, which I did global product management.

That was, it was, it was product, but it was more about, okay, how am I gonna. Engage all these markets. They basically sell my product to them. Yeah. How do I convince them that my product is good enough for you to put it in your plan? Right. So that's when I, it wasn't sales, but there was that. Element of selling because I had to sell, I had to convince other product managers in every single market.

I got to travel and it was, it was really cool. Um, and I remember after doing that, as much as I loved it, I was like, okay, I'm now ready to kind of, to be client facing own customer relationships, but I wanted to own. Strategic large partnerships between Vodafone and clients. And I remember going into the interviews and a lot of the time, unfortunately, I feel like historically, and I don't think it's a Vodafone thing, I think it's with a lot of companies, the need for, um, for sale for you to have heavy sales experience to go into a strategic sales role.

Mm-hmm. Um, I managed to position my product roles in a way where, okay, my product roles. Actually, this is where I did sales, and I can bring that into the account role. Right. And that was successful. And then that's when I got my first strategic sales role as a client sales manager, also in government. Um, I was focused on supporting, um, government's account, which was really highly focused on education, which was a soft spot for me as well.

So supporting them in terms of how can we support. Young people. And um, yeah. And then later I did that for a couple of years. And then I did do what I do now as a global account manager managing, um, four global accounts, um, which are our top, like, like one of our top multinational corporations.

Phil: Wow. That's amazing.

Uh, the amount of experience you've got in a relatively short space of time, Sherry, I think it's, uh, it's uh, it's very impressive the, uh, journey you've had so far with Verone. Great. They've given the opportunity, you know, to do what you. You know, what, what you're now doing, uh, as well. So brilliant. Um, well let's move on to, um, the topic, the main topic of our podcast.

'cause you're taking part in the, um, sales transformation podcast series, but it's the master cast and this is, uh, this is now a chance for you to share. Your research and your research topic. Um, but before we go into the research itself, do you mind just saying, how did you come to hear about the opportunity to do a Master's and what made you decide to do a Master's?

Sherry: yeah, so I, I remember getting an email from, I think it was, it was like a, it was an email from our HR and development teams, and they said that they were launching a sales academy, like a, a leadership program.

Yeah. And within that they had like three different programs, um, one being the masters, um, from a leadership perspective. And there was two other programs. One was a. Um, BSC would be the, the output. And there was another one, and I remember, oh yes,

Phil: that was the undergraduate course. Yes. Yeah.

Sherry: So to me, it, it appealed to me that the leadership Master's one.

Phil: Yeah.

Sherry: I was at a time in my career where I was, I really wanted to develop myself. I knew I wanted to be a sales leader. I wanted to, yeah, actually, like develop that and understand what it means to be a leader versus like a manager. Um, and I spoke to my manager at that time because they had quite strict requirements at Vodafone.

They wanted you to already be a, a people manager to do the Masters, otherwise you didn't do BSC. Um, I had a quite, at that time, I was doing the client sales manager job. With government. Yeah. I had a, a very big virtual team. They didn't directly report to me, but they had to follow my strategy and leadership.

Um, so I, I spoke to my manager and I was like, I'm gonna be honest with you. I know on paper technically I should apply for the BSC. But I can see the BSC. There's, there's, there is. It's great, but there is quite a bit of similarities with what I've done when I was at, um, Henley Business School. Yeah. So, um, I spoke to her, I told her what my ambitions are and yeah, she was really supportive, managed to kind of,

Phil: yes,

Sherry: fill in a bit of like a, almost like a business case.

And I put through and they were supportive because obviously there was a commitment in terms of how that would impact like my, my day job as well, which I made sure it didn't impact. In fact, it really helped me give back more. I did more than my day job because they, I was like, because I'm doing this leadership program and because I should, yeah.

Have people who actually report to me. There are certain things I'm gonna need to a, apply to the team so I can practice. Yeah. So I got to like lead team meetings that I wouldn't have otherwise led. So it was, it was a really good opportunity. Fantastic. In work and outta work as well.

Phil: Yeah. No, that's brilliant.

That's brilliant. That's fantastic. Okay, so, um, let's move on to your, um, your project, because I think you're very interested when it came to the, uh, coaching module in particular. And I know that that is the subject of your, um, you know, of, of your. Dissertation of, of your final project. Um, and what we do is we start off with a question here, which is why, why, why did you define for your final dissertation that this was a topic that you wanted to do more research on?

Sherry: So, um, when we were going through all the modules, there were so many great modules. Um, when I was doing the, the Masters, obviously coaching was one of them. And when I did coaching, I learned quite a lot. I didn't know I knew, so I was in an environment. Even, even in my personal life, I used to always hear the word mentoring and I never really heard coaching.

Obviously, we'd hear co I would hear coaching here and there when it comes to like, oh. Gym habits or sports, but I never heard it at work. Yeah. Or not much at least. And it made me more curious. So as I was doing that module, I was like, whoa, like there's a whole bit that is so important that we don't go deep into, and we just focus on mentoring even personally, not just professionally.

Yeah. And it made me more and more curious and as I was having conversations with people around me, within the organization, as I was doing the initial module, I was. I was even more surprised that I also found, actually, it almost depends on what level you are for you to know coaching and have access to it.

And that made me wanna, okay, how can I now go deeper with this, understand what coaching is, but also understand why such a big organization it has previously invested more in mentoring or saying it than coaching. And when was actually, when was I actually being coached? Unintentionally, and I didn't even realize what was happening in the background.

Um, right. So it was just my cu it was my curiosity and that I felt like it wasn't getting the attention that I think it should at all levels. I know. More seen when we talk later about this. I, I also felt like it almost depends, depends on what level you are for you two. Yeah. What exposure to coaching, which I don't think should be the case.

Phil: Yeah. So the, do you mind if I read out the question? Mm-hmm. You answered with, can embedding a coaching culture in Vodafone sales teams lead to more motivated and successful account managers? That was the, that was the predominant question. Mm-hmm. And so, um, and so part of this, of course, would it have involved you in, you know, perhaps even prior to the research, like you said, sort of putting out feelers, you know, testing the waters, so to speak.

What was interesting about sort of reading your, your, your abstract and, and the introduction to your project is the fact that, as you've just said really Sherry, um, is that you were perhaps slightly surprised at the lack of attention it was getting. And um, and I guess that may have influenced this link back to the word.

Um, culture, 'cause you mentioned culture right at the very beginning, in fact that it's a topic that interests you. Um, so you I guess, began to question about, you know, can, can a culture be created when none. Existed before. It's quite something to build something from scratch, I would say. So. Um, so yeah, tell me more about how you started to sort of investigate the topic that you were interested in.

Because it, it wasn't just your direct research, it would have been reading and, and doing more research around it. What, what, what sort of things did, did you find interesting with some of the, um, reading you did around the topic?

Sherry: Yeah, I think the reading, um, a lot of the reading I did, even when it was like online reports and stuff like this, there was actually a consistency, um, that often you, I, I could, a lot of the time coaching was always mixed with mentoring.

Like it was always mentioned together, hand in hand. And there was a lot of organizations and, and readings that actually said the same thing in terms of. How much, um, mentoring is, is highly embedded in, highly spoken about. Yeah. But you don't get a lot from a coaching perspective, which completely matched because I found, when I spent a lot of time with people, I went, I didn't just, I know I fit my question focus on like sales managers and account managers.

I also went to the level above and I went to HR because I was, I wanted to understand kind of what's going on and I found that actually, um. Pe, those who are really senior levels because of their experience, they really understood the differences between coaching and mentoring. They had invested in coaching or people within their circle had invested in them by giving them coaching.

But then I was like, actually we have so much people who have so much coaching knowledge, but no one talks about it.

Like, again, no one's actually, like I, I realized that I had a manager years ago when I first joined Vodafone, and he was coaching me. He would always go. A meeting with me and ask me questions to get, kind of, to drive me to an answer. Yeah. And I hadn't, at that point, I didn't know what was going on. Um, so, and that, that's when I understood, okay, there's actually different types of coaching.

There's Yeah. Is it being consented to? Is it not? And that's kind of the insights I also got, um, from the, from the readings. But there was, yeah, I think there was, there was always a trend in terms of mentoring versus coaching. You don't see them. Even though they are two different things, but you find 'em highly interconnected in texts, in even really senior managers speaking about it.

And I almost had to do, I had to partner up with people coaching specialists within Vodafone as an organization to come with me and hold sessions to make sure it's clear what coaching actually is. Um, and, and that was, that was really powerful to be able to, to do something like that. Part of the project.

Phil: So for, for the benefit of the listener, Sherry, would you like to explain how you see the difference between mentoring and coaching?

Sherry: Yeah, of course. So from, okay, so from a, I think from a mentoring perspective, we, I've had so many mentors and they've been amazing in my career. Um, mentoring is almost, I would say is quite advisory.

So I, I could be speaking to my mentor, getting advice, getting inspiration. It's, it's back and forth. Um, but when I, when I think about coaching, it's heavily question based, and it's not me raising the question to my mentor being like, oh, I'm a, like, if, well, I'm a bit confused with this or that, but no a in a coaching conversation, you have a coach and they are asking you the questions.

could be a magic question, it could be anything to get the answer or the clarity to the problem that I've come with. And that to me was, is such an interesting way where you are actually as a coach, you are empowering someone else to create their own answers, right? So, so, and actually a coach does, I think with a, we've always had the stereotype for me, like a mentor, someone who's, um, inspires me, someone often, a lot more senior than I am.

To, to give me that kind of direction, to keep in contact from a networking perspective, all of this great stuff, but from a coaching perspective, who is really going to also be conf, like, have the confidence to ask me the questions and give and give me the safe space that I can answer it. So I think as a coach, I think you need, I think you need to really, when you select a coach or when you have that, are your characters meshing that you can both have that, can I, do I feel safe?

Am I gonna answer this question? Will this person ask me the questions that get me to that kind of, that, that destination I need to go to without them giving me the answer? And that's the kind of, to me, the, the main difference, um, of what a coach does.

Phil: Yeah, and I guess there's a place for both mentoring and coaching.

And so if we look at coaching per se, where do you see, I. The power, I guess the power, the real benefit of coaching come. What sort of scenarios do you think,

Sherry: yeah.

Phil: Suggest that this is the right approach to take? It's a coaching approach as opposed to perhaps a mentoring approach.

Sherry: Yeah, I think, um, coaching, you can almost, if I have, so for me, if I had a challenge with a client and I need to, I'm, I, I'm, I'm quite confused.

I need to get to somewhere. I've got a, I've got a, a deadline or a challenge. That, that coach can get me to where I need to get to solve that. So I need to almost like, as an opportunity to get my thoughts out in a very structured manner,

Phil: right?

Sherry: Not saying a mentor isn't needed. I've got both and a, I have had several mentors and they've really helped me.

Um, you also need to think about timelines is okay, I've got an issue that I need to resolve tomorrow. Okay. Yeah. Will, will a really structured coaching session help me resolve this because, okay, I need to make sure that these, yes, these questions are gonna get me somewhere, but will they get me there on time if I had that big deadline?

So I think you, I think for me it's coaching is needed where there is a problem statement. If there's almost like a, a why and a what, um, and then I can go through, okay. This is the, this is the person who can help me through this and ask me the right questions. Yeah, and then I will be accountable for actions to do before my next session.

Phil: So from a personal point of view, do you look for someone to coach you around a topic according to their particular skillset or their area of expertise? So you, you choose your coach, so to speak, you. It is not just the, the way you look at coaching others, which I know is something that you will do, but I'm just intrigued with.

With you selecting the coach that you think is going to be most helpful?

Sherry: Yeah, I think you, I remember when we were doing, um, I did it also with you guys, actually, I did a coaching qualification after this in terms of yes, when you, you almost need to like see if, if you both. But also mesh because like I said, you need to be quite comfortable 'cause you're gonna ask me questions.

So I think, yes. And is this, is this the right person to ask questions about this, this issue? And I don't think they always need to be someone who's like so senior or so on. Whereas a mentor might need to be more Yes, because it's a more like, oh, let's meet every month about my career plan. It's more general where I think a coaching relationship can be quite specific.

Yeah, what your need is at that time. So there's almost like a compatibility thing also. Like almost, yeah. Will, will this person be able to question me in the right direction?

Phil: Yeah. Okay. No, that's really, that's really great. Very clever of you to kind of see it in that way. Um, so, um, we talked a little bit about reading.

Um, were there any sort of academic, uh, books or. Pieces of literature that come to mind that you think actually also helped influence the direction of your research?

Sherry: Yeah, there was quite, I did quite a bit of reading, um, physical and also heavily like online as well. And I didn't just, um, I didn't just go for like really like heavily focused on just coaching, but even in terms of like face-to-face communication, um.

In terms of like, okay. Also there was books on actually creating a coaching culture. 'cause like you said, culture is quite a high, a hard thing. To change or develop. Yeah. Even my own, like, as a, as an original Egyptian person, it's hard for me to like change certain things I've got from my culture as a, as from when I was a a child.

Um, so yeah, I did reading from that perspective. I've, I've, I've got here as well noted, um, I read Creating a Coaching Culture by Clutter Andon. I had some really good, um. Even use some of your content actually, um, in, in, in my work and, um, something I love a lot and we actually mention it a lot even before I did the, the Masters, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.

Phil: Yes. '

Sherry: cause so I thought that was also quite powerful. So I, I, I mentioned that a few times.

Phil: Yeah.

Sherry: Um, but for me, yeah, it was quite, quite mixed. Um, and also, okay. I also took in something that I really liked. Um. I'll try and find exactly where I read it, but it was about also, um, leadership styles and how that impacts a capability of a leader being able to coach or not.

Um, yeah, and the role of empathy within coaching as well. Right. Um, so yeah, quite mixed. I would say nothing just specifically made me like deep dive into it, but there was just quite a lot of different things

Phil: of different things. That's what I love about the masters is the fact that you, you, you can go and explore different, um.

Different disciplines or different topics and, and sort of make, uh, make connections to the one that you're interested in. So yeah, things like emotional intelligence, terribly important for coaching. Yes. And, and leadership, of course. Yeah. There's so much you can read around the topic. Okay. So if we could just come back to your role now, uh, or as it was then.

Sorry, it's probably possibly similar now, um, which is the, you're a global account director. You didn't have so many direct reports, is that right? But you had a lot of people that worked in your virtual teams, um, and I guess they were a little bit the target of your kind of research as well. Yeah. Uh, would that, yeah.

Okay. So perhaps you could just describe the scenario that you were working in as you did your project.

Sherry: Yeah. It was quite interesting 'cause when I first did my master's, I was a client sales manager. I had a virtual team that actually wasn't all salespeople because we had dedicated service, dedicated delivery, legal, because it was government.

And then when it came to my project, I had already moved to global account management. Um, and the way my, my virtual team looks like it's actually sells heavy. It's very different to how it was before. Yeah. So my virtual team have a, um, quite a big amount of national account managers. So they would manage the engagement with the accounts from a local perspective.

So I would have a UK account manager, I would have a, a Spanish degree, and so on and so forth. Yeah. Um, and they would form my virtual team and I have a, I create the account development plans from a global perspective, and I have the C-suite engagements to support them, and then they then, right, develop the, the local opportunities on that basis.

So it was, um, I had, I had quite a few when I did the, the coaching project, I focused on like the element of, okay, the account managers, the national account managers. And then also their sales managers, um, and our directors, which again, my insights on every single layer were completely different. So it was interesting.

Yeah, it was, it was really interesting. Um, and I also tried to like, see, okay, do we ever also use coaching in our customer engagements? So if I'm trying to sell something to a customer or create, like, create a desire or a demand, have we ever really like spent time with a customer? To ask them questions to understand them as well.

So yeah, there was loads of insights. It was, it, yeah, it was, it was really interesting and it was nice to spend time with people and learn from them. Like when I sat down with the sales managers and the heads of, who actually had significant coaching experience, but they never spoke about it. Uh, yeah.

Prior I learned so much, and those insights were in my project as well.

Phil: How interesting. So, um, could you talk me through a little bit more the, the way you structured your research then? You talk about the different layers, but it sounds like you have quite a big team and the scope of your research project seems quite quite.

Broad, I mean in terms of numbers. So, um, perhaps you could just talk through the mechanics more of how did you go about your research.

Sherry: Yeah, of course. So, um, you are right, the team is really big and national account managers could be in any market, but I focused more on my UK national account managers and the leadership team from a global perspective, which allowed me to kind of tighten the remit because if I went.

So all the national account managers across all these markets who each have their own cultures, it'll be difficult, but it'll be something that I would like to see, like someone invest in. Of course. Um, so yeah, my journey on the project, so I had my time to terms of like personal reflecting and also taking in everything that I would've learned earlier.

I then did something super easy, which Vodafone is so used to doing, so it's not a shock to anyone. Um, I sent out a poll. Um, to all, oh yeah. To all the sales team. Yeah. Using Slido, um, to kind of get their insights. Like do like, just almost like a Yeah. Do you even know, like, have you, do you know anything about coaching?

Is, is mentoring what you hear more? I just wanted to Yeah. Get some high level insights. I pulled that out and that was, um. Heavily responded by from the, like the National Account Managers teams. But then I also, um, held professional discussions with the sales leaders, so the directors, um, and I spent time about like, it was like 25 to 30 minutes in a very like relaxed environment so everyone can be open.

Yes. Like meeting our. Vodafone coffee shop and we talk about it super openly, almo. I didn't want it to feel like an interview. I wanted it to be very open. Yes. And that's when I pulled out the insights in terms of, okay, this is interesting because my Slido poll with the account managers. You can see it's.

There wasn't much knowledge of coaching and they hadn't had, like, there wasn't even when I would just spend time with my national account managers, no one's really invested in coaching with them.

Phil: Yeah.

Sherry: Whereas when I sat down with my directors, it, they were, it was awesome. I learned so much. They've had coaching, they've even had coaching invested in from, from a professional perspective, not just them.

Some of them had invested personally and paid for a coach. Wow. Some of them had, yeah. Yeah. From, uh, Vodafone or other companies. Yeah. Because they had very long careers, so it was quite interesting to, to pull that. Yes. Um, but I also wanted to understand from hr, like, what's HR doing? Because Yeah, I've seen a lot of top talent programs, um, assigning US mentors.

So I wanted to know, okay, what is Vodafone doing that I might not be aware of? Um,

Phil: yeah. And

Sherry: I found some people who actually had coaching in their job title in Vodafone. I was like, this is cool. Um, so I, I spent time with them. Right, and I got them bought into my project. Um, because I wanted to, I wanted to say these are, these are also experts and actually they told me the same thing they said to me, we've invested in coaching at a certain level.

We haven't widened the scope yet, but we would be Right open to potentially exploring it. Um, yeah. So I did a briefing with them and I told them, this is the insights I've pulled out. This is what I'm doing.

Phil: Yeah.

Sherry: And, um, managed to do this was really awesome. Managed to do A A coaching workshop with my team, and that included the sales leaders.

So it was a, it wasn't bringing all the national account managers, it was bringing the sales leaders and the managers in one space, because I think you almost need to influence the top to then spread that across. Yeah, yeah. The rest of the remit. So, um, that was hosted. I was there, I organized it, but it wasn't me doing the, the pitching on what coaching is.

I got the, the profession that we had at Vodafone, we did that session. Um, and everyone came in. It was really open. It was pretty awesome. We then did like a online, um, survey and there was, there was actions that, okay, how are we gonna then implement this within those you, you lead within your organization?

Um, and that was almost the official kickoff of the program in terms of, okay, we've had that workshop, we've done the education at that level. Now let's see how we can. Drive now change. Mm-hmm. Um, which is tricky because you, there's obviously so many moving parts that can influence this change. I'm not gonna be in every single conversation, every single one-to-one, but that's how we kind of kicked it off to then start tracking.

How is that impacting since the one-to-ones with the national account managers, how is that implement, um, impacting pipeline, customer conversations. Um, customer experience days, all of these things. Yeah. Um, so we did some tracking. Um, but yeah, it, it, it was, it was, yeah, it was, it was really interesting. It was great and I did some, doing the tracking was difficult and I made this really clear in my research because the numbers had looked really positive.

I saw pipeline improvement. I saw a lot of things again, yeah, I cannot completely say that was primarily down to now having, working on coaching, doing better education. Yeah, talking about it more, having the managers speak with their national account managers on a coaching basis because. Again, like there could be so many things outside of the control.

'cause it isn't a lab environment. Yeah. Which could be influencing this. Um, but I think, like you said, culture is quite wide and quite big. Um, yeah. And it'll take time. So it's something that would have to continue and be very gradual and see yeah. What more. Can we do, but I've already seen like some really good things recently, like, and I can, we have now like a coaching program at Vodafone.

We never had that before and that was really nice to see. Right. Um, they also promote, they had a time where they were also promoting more people to do coaching qualifications at all levels. It's not a protected program just for those who are senior. So I saw a lot of change coming as a result. It will take time, but it was really nice to see triggering that conversation, what it created to the rest of the, the environment.

Phil: It's fantastic. 'cause I, I, you know, the poll result was quite interesting that you kind of referred to it, uh, right at the beginning about, um, uh, about how much coaching do people receive. And I, I think, you know, the majority had not received coaching. Um, so you, but obviously when you had your one-on-ones, you realized actually there were people here who had received a lot of coaching and there that there was a lot of coaching that was being done at a certain level.

Sherry: Yeah.

Phil: Um, part of this is about creating a culture around coaching. And so this workshop was, it, was this done at a point in time that people had. Agreed with you that coaching was important and we needed to create a culture of coaching. Um, or, or, um. Or did you use the workshop to, if you like, sell the idea that coaching is a culture, it is important, and how are we going to sort of promote it?

Or was it a bit of both? I'm not quite sure.

Sherry: Yeah. So I did the, so I did the initial discussions and like testing the water and letting them know, because people don't need to really give me time to do this because obviously they can be like, well, it's not your day job. Yeah. What are you doing? So yeah, I, when I spent time with the leaders, including our director.

Which was amazing because he was really open to it. I almost got him bought into what I'm trying to achieve, and that's what allowed me to then create that session. And then I needed to also get Brian from a team I had never spoken to, which is that coaching HR team that I didn't even know Yeah. To buy them into my journey right at the beginning.

And they were, they were convinced that the value it would bring and therefore we do it. But I think there was no one that was like thinking, okay, it's gonna be promising, but I am the objectives of the HR coaching team. Luckily, which was great for us as well, is that they were, yeah, they were also having the same challenge.

And I showed them how actually I'm gonna support, we're almost going through the same, like, it's the same clause. I'm gonna help you create the education, see if it's worth also opening up to the other bands, which you are considering. Yeah. Yeah. So it almost became like, okay, we're on that same team, almost like, okay, it's a win-win.

And that's how li like, I think that's how things have to be, isn't it? It's like how can Yeah, we both. Also benefit. Um, and um, I remember the lady, her name was Claire. She came in and she was supportive and we did the session. I think it was interesting for me 'cause when, I think when they, when we first, when we first kicked off the workshop, everyone was like, probably thinking, oh, it's another workshop.

Yeah. But by the end of it, it wasn't like that because Yeah. Um, like I said to you, like it, the, the, when I had the director come and he opened the meeting, the workshop, 'cause I wanted to make sure that knew. Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, this is the way how life is. I think hierarchy is somewhat important. So when I had someone at the level of our director going, I'm supportive of this.

I wanna achieve this, this, this coaching is important for me because of this, you can see people started to be like, okay, I'm gonna be a bit more open. And then we did, we did the session. People actually went split. They split out into like separate teams. Um Okay. And they were even saying it was quite like.

Emotional to like actually like have some time with someone and like get that question time, which they don't do with people they wouldn't usually do with. Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Sherry: Um, it was just so rewarding.

Phil: So you got them doing sort of mini fishbowl type exercises, Sherry, you know, such as the ones that you did on the, on the, on the program.

Um,

Sherry: yeah. Hundred percent. By the way. I loved him. I also loved, I remember I did, um, when I was first on the program and I was still like a client sales manager and. I had learned, we had done some exercises in, in session with your, with yourselves. Yeah. Um, including like, okay, what do you see of yourself versus what do people see of you?

And I, I could see there was always like things hidden that none of us even knew about each other. Even simple exercises like the shield exercise I remember doing. Yeah.

Phil: Amazing. Isn't, yeah. And actually when we did

Sherry: that shield exercise. With the wider team. Um, people got, yeah. Honestly, people were emotional 'cause they were like, I've been working with these people for years and I didn't know what motivated them or what was going on in their world.

Like, why do I come work? Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just really, I think it's really good to, even just as a trigger of reflection these projects, it's, it's, it's really powerful.

Phil: I think it, uh, I mean this is slightly an aside, but in this world of, of AI and technology, you know, the human side, you know, perhaps is getting overlooked, but it's terribly important that one connects with people at a human level.

I'm sure that is something that is close to your heart as well. I can see. Yeah, no,

Sherry: for sure. A hundred percent I think. Yeah, we forget that often. Yeah.

Phil: Yeah, we do. And um, it's interesting 'cause your work outside with the church, I guess, as, as, as well, the spiritual side is terribly important.

Sherry: Yeah, for sure.

And we

Phil: had, uh, we had a master student who's just completed who's, um, from the far east and, uh. Uh, has sort of studied Hinduism and, uh, linked the spirituality of his, his sort of upbringing with leadership and coaching as well. And it's just so interesting to see the different lenses through which people apply themselves to, to the same, you know, the same topic, which is coaching.

Yeah, that's. Can, can we come back to, you know, if, so you did the workshop and you started this initiative and it started to percolate down through the organization. What, what changes did you observe as a consequence of the research that, that you were doing, and what sort of learnings did you come up with, you know, from, from the journey you were on?

Sherry: Yeah, there was quite a lot. I think there was quite a lot of things, um, I had seen. I think the, the first thing for me was to. Seeing hr, um, actually invest in thinking about people beyond the kind of the leadership level. Because I think, yeah, that there is a lot of people where they, they also want to get that to that stage, but there's a journey to get there.

So it was nice to see the, the, um, the HR team opening up to the various levels of who they support and how they support. So that, to me was, was really good and it was really important for me. Um. It was also interesting to see that there was a bit more consensual coaching. So because I, I, I told you like earlier, like I had a, I had a really lovely manager and he, and I realized he was like coaching me and sometimes he'd be like, why is this person asking me so many questions?

Um, and that's when I realized actually it's also quite important to have that consent to know. I'm like, okay, this is a coaching session. Um, and happening a bit more. Um, and I even, right, I even do it in, in my personal life. I do it more 'cause I'm like, I've got a little sister with massive age gap. And I saw that in my character and I'm like, okay, maybe I need to do that.

'cause I often, I often get lazy. Even I do it with my national account managers. I just wanna give you the answer. I I I I'm not, lemme just get there. But that's not always the way forward because you're not really actually developing the person in front of you if you keep giving them the answer. Right.

Um, so even the way I I deal with people is different, even the way I deal with people at home. And that's why coaching is Yeah. Isn't just for work. I think coaching is for everything in life. Um, yeah, that was also a learning. It was, it was of course really nice to see. I mean, say I also see like the growth in the pipeline, the growth, but again, I think it's such a hard one.

Pipeline is always a hard one because there are so many moving parts. So I didn't wholeheartedly be like, this shows I was successful. It was actually a lot of the other stuff. And seeing now. The emails we get now more on coaching, which we never did before, to me is, is evidence that the, the noise that was created was healthy.

Yeah, yeah. And led to something long term.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Clearly that has approached the cultural level. You know, if you're starting to see, um, you know, within the ecosystem you have at Vodafone, a lot more focus around coaching and the fact that it's available. Not just for very senior managers, but throughout the organization and perhaps in a way the.

Coming together of your project and sales and what HR were trying to do that, that was serendipity. You know, it's two, two parts of the business. They must have been thrilled that you were doing your research, you know, around coaching.

Sherry: No,

Phil: it's great. They're pushing at an open door, you know, with you at least you had your boss there, so you had Yeah.

You know, the perfect, uh, sort of guiding coalition in a way, going back to Kotter's framework of change and change management. It is really interesting. Yeah, I can see that. It's, uh, it's part of the way in which you work your DNA your, your coaching mindset. Can I ask about customers? Actually, I'm quite intrigued with what you said earlier about customers and coaching, using a coaching approach with customers.

Can you tell, tell me a bit more about that and whether. Whether you've taken the coaching practices into sort of customer engagement and sort of what, what have you seen the benefits of being, you know, having done that?

Sherry: I honestly, I think it's almost like worth having it as its own. Um. A project in itself.

I think like, I think it's, it's, it's quite like, it's quite a big one, but I was reflecting on this and I remember like when I spend time with my, um, with my clients is, okay, when we have a, a challenge or when there is a situation, how can I also question them within sessions? So that was really important for me.

So. I've, I've tried to do this with my current, like I've got a client that I do this, um, consistently with, and it's because we've developed a partnership. I also feel comfortable doing it. Um, and I think sales is all about also like, of course there's reactive sales. Where okay, they come to you with a requirement and here it is, but what if they come to you with a problem?

Um, yeah, and then they don't know what the solution is. How do we like ask the right questions? Mm-hmm. How do we create like that creative environment? I do it often in my Q bs. I would like to invest more in it as well, and on a more like intentional manner, but for a client, we do it in Q bs. So, um, right.

We do, we do some inspiration, we do some great stuff, but we always give them a session where they air out everything. And I do that right at the beginning, and then that almost like tailors everything afterwards. So yes. Um, yeah, we, we, they actually do most of the talking, which is also good because we shouldn't be doing more talking.

Yeah. And that's why coaching's really good because coaching, um, a lot of the time when I'm with my mentor it because, because that's the right way of doing it. They will talk more than me. But a lot of the time, um, in the coaching environment when we have those sessions, we are completely hearing out the customer.

Um, and then we ask questions. And then they would then respond, and then by the end of it, we've got to somewhere which we hadn't even known we, we would've got to. And then that influences the next QBR and what speakers we bring next time that we think would actually support them. So it's almost like a, it's a trigger of coaching and then it could go elsewhere, which is why, why it's a bit different with the customer, where I'm not gonna intentionally have a coaching session with, with my client, um, every week and be like, let's talk about it.

But no, it happens in our qbr. Um, and it's really changed the relationship. And we're seeing that they're, they are open, they are honest, we are curious, and I think a coach needs to be curious. We're asking these great questions. Um, and it's, and they're giving those responses and it's, and it, it powers them because actually they're not just seeing someone who's a great listener.

They're also seeing someone who is getting them through their own responses to where they need to get to with their challeng is they're a massive organization. They go through so much change. Um, yeah. So yeah, I think it's a, it's a quite a powerful, um, thing to do.

Phil: I think it is. And um, it, it is interesting.

You, you, you know, you said it could be a, a topic on, its on its own right. You know, to do a dissertation purely around coaching the customer. And in fact, one of our, one of our students on one of our very first masters projects, Simon Dale, um, who has also been on the sales transformation podcast, did his project on.

Um, coaching the, uh, what was the title? It's something like, yeah, coaching as a Sales Methodology. I think it's something along those, those lines. And he took some of the, um, top performing salespeople, uh, that he was. Had an in interest in supporting in, in a PJ in, I think it was, uh, sort of Australia mainly that he worked, but it was very interesting.

So he was exploring the attitude of the sales team looking after their customers. And their perceptions of coaching as a sales methodology. So he sort of took them on on that kind of journey. And once you then got the buy-in for the sales team, it was then a question of how to apply a coaching.

Methodology as part of a qualification process or a, a sales process. It was really interesting and, uh, got some really interesting data points. And it's, ma you're making me think that we should do a, uh, we need, we, we, we can coate all of the coaching dissertations that have been done over time and pull 'em together because everyone's approached, you know.

Coaching from a slightly different subject, you know? Yeah. Yours is from a cultural dimension, his is from a sales dimension. Uh, we have some very interesting projects around resilience and coaching. Resilience. Yes. So there's many different flavors that we're. You know, seeing now as a consequence of all the different projects people have been doing over the years, but I think it's important enough a topic that we should pull it together, don't you think?

Sherry: No, it sounds awesome myself. I wanna read a few of the things you've just mentioned.

Phil: Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. Look out Simon, Dale, I'll send you a note. And also, um, one of my, um, I just love Simon's work, but also, uh, Carol Pemberton. Um, who did one of the early podcasts around resilience and she is absolutely awesome.

She's, uh, got a PhD actually in coaching as well. Oh, wow. So she's really, she's very inspired. I think You'd love to listen to them both. So I'll, I'll send you a note.

Sherry: Yeah, I'd love that.

Phil: And I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell Simon. About your interest as well. Come seeing him in Singapore in a few weeks time.

Sherry: Oh, wicked.

Phil: And I shall, uh, mention your research project. So there's, it is definitely, of all the modules that we've run in the master's coaching is often the one that people, you know, take a huge amount from. So, I, I have to thank you. You know, for your interest in the topic. And thank you for

Sherry: driving it, for triggering this interest in me.

It's been a, yeah, it was an awesome experience.

Phil: Yeah, it's an amazing, it's an amazing masters, isn't it? It it, it's incredible what it does to, to, um, I think it simply provides a platform to ignite people's curiosity.

Sherry: A hundred percent.

Phil: We do it. I think we do it in quite a good way, but, um. Um, do I say it myself?

Uh, there's, pardon me. Bless you. Final question that I'd quite like to ask, which is, if you are going to take, you know, three or four key takeaways from, you know, the journey that you went on, uh, things that you've learned so much from as a consequence of what you've done, uh, what, what would they be?

Sherry: I think, um, don't be afraid to ask questions.

Um, customer or people around you. Um, also the, the importance of enablement around you. I think you need, like, being well connected, like with HR at a time, I, I had no clue what they were doing. I could have duplicated a lot of their efforts. So I think that was, um, really important. And also I would say, um.

Influencing out of choice. So people choose to follow you rather than anything else. So I think that the first step of my project was spending time with people getting their insights. I didn't wanna go. Yeah. Okay. Well you are gonna have to follow me 'cause I'm doing this to my national account managers.

No. Yeah, it's How do I. Almost how, how do you also sell and understand people before you try and influence them to change the way of doing things. Um, and I think that's why people are so important and where empathy comes in, all of these things. So I think another three stand up things for me. Um. Yeah.

Yeah. Especially like, I don't think you can, and that's why I think one of the key learnings I learned on the Masters is, okay, the difference between managing and leadership. Leadership is a, people choose to follow you. Whereas management, it's, it's not the same. And I think when you do a project like that, how do you get people to actually choose, how do you influence their mindset?

So I think all of that was, um, was essential.

Phil: I love that phrase, influencing outta choice. Uh, I shall ponder on that one. Um, it's, uh, yeah, that's a great phrase. Influencing, so, influencing outta choice, is that from your perspective? Is that Yeah, that's a, that's a, yeah. Sort of influencing our choice and the choices is what the choice is.

Sorry, I'm, I'm going off on a tangent here, Sherry, so you, no,

Sherry: not at all.

Phil: Um, but, uh, the choices. Is the choice from the recipient's PO perspective?

Sherry: Yeah. Is it because I think

Phil: they, they need to be open to the idea of being in influenced or

Sherry: a hundred percent. I think they need to be open to it because I think we're in a day where they're getting so much messaging outside at work.

Okay. All of these things. How, okay, if I'm gonna, if I'm expecting to influence some form of change within them. How can they, like, how can they choose to be open to this? How can I develop that relationship with them to give them the,

Phil: yeah. Yeah. They actually

Sherry: want to.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. And

Sherry: that's why actually it was important when I spent time with people, I found people passionate about coaching, not just at work.

Yeah. And I think a lot of us, when we, yeah, work is important, but what, yeah. What are the triggers that, that they're at home for? Like, yeah. That they leave home for, work for, like, I had a, a guy who, um, he had such a, it was important for him to coach his, um, his kids, and it was impacting his personal life, and he was so passionate about it.

And for hi and someone like him, it was great because he was, he was really good on my journey. And it wasn't because I'm, I've got the best project in the world. It was because there was a soft spot where he chose and he saw the the, the why. Yeah. You know? And that to me was like, really? Yeah. Really, really important and valuable for the project.

Phil: Fantastic. Okay. Well, Sherry, on that note, I think we can call things to a close, but I just want to thank you so much for your time and for sharing this, uh, on the, on the podcast. I think, uh, I think people are gonna find it very inspiring to hear what you've just shared.

Sherry: Thank you. Thank you. I hope it's valuable.

And thank you so much for your time. I enjoyed it.

Phil: Yeah, me too.